How do you see Sakuraba vs Rickson going realistically?

I did a quick google search on it, and AI slop told me:

The average age for an NHL MVP (Hart Trophy winner) is around 27 years old

Most winners fall into the 25-28 age bracket, aligning with the general peak performance years for NHL players.

I guess I could go through the statistics and verify it.

What better explains my point, I think, is that when someone gets constant elite level coaching from a young age, their maturity as a fighter maxes out at a younger age.

I didn’t mention Mike Tyson, because Cus D’Amato wasn’t his biological father. Although Cus D’Amato did legally adopt Mike Tyson. Tyson’s prime was over the minute after he fought Spinks and then fired Kevin Rooney. Tyson was only 21.

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The Gracie’s have one of the most successful martial arts dojo empires that makes karate school envy them. My friends have visited their dojos and they likened it to a car assembly line.

I don’t hate them for making that money. I wish I had a business that successful. I’m surprised they never made a Rickson coin

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I want a Wallid coin.

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ES Boolshet coin

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Fair has nothing to do with it.

The premise of the thread is Rickson vs Sak.
The argument is that Rickson was so much better than Royce and Renzo.

Dan Henderson KO’d Bisping at 39, and had how many fights after that?
And with a ton more damage taken and mileage.

If Rickson could do a one-off with Funaki in '00 – the same year Sak fought Renzo and Ryan – he could do a one-off with Sak.

But for the sake of argument, we can assume prime Rickson in a time machine.
We do that with other hypothetical matchups.

Either way, I’m personally picking Sak, but I can see a way that Rickson wins.

The premise of Rickson being “better at MMA” than Royce and Renzo…
I think Ken was 30 for UFC 1 and Severn was 36 for UFC 4.

But I’m not one of the guys giving Rickson shit for doing or not doing anything.
As a Dad myself, I wouldn’t even begin to go there.
I think he was physically capable and I would have liked to have seen it.
Beyond that I’m just making my own observations of what I think might have happened.

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Pointing Up Morgan Freeman GIF by MOODMAN

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mostly good point, but funaki knew how to defend everything rickson did to em. same with most of those other japanese submission fighters.

i just had a flashback and remembered reading something funaki said about that fight. rickson did something that destroyed funakis knee, and the fight was all downhill from there

probably during this phase

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Ehh there’s a big difference between Chick Liddell and Rickson Gracie though - one fought all of the top opponents he possibly could and the other did the exact opposite

Bad comparison

The Rickson fanboys tend to forget how weak his takedowns were. Saku was a better athlete and much better wrestler - he dictates where the fight goes ..

I mean sure, if you start the fight with Rickson grapevining Saku then yeah I give him better chance of winning :joy:

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You see a big difference here between the guys who’ve spent enough time around Jiu-Jitsu to have met the people involved, or heard them talk shop, vs. those who just saw MMA on TV.

Jiu-Jitsu is a martial art, and a self-defense system, and a sport, but it’s also a business.

From the very beginning, the main purpose for the UFC was as a form of marketing which would create demand for Jiu-Jitsu schools. The inventor of the UFC (Rorion) told you straight up exactly what he was trying to do.

Gracie Jiu-Jitsu is also a family business, like Ford Motor Company. Not everyone who works for Ford is a member of the family, but the family still controls a huge share of the voting stock. The Gracies still maintain control of their family business through the IBJJF (Carlos Jr).

Rickson was not a modern MMA fighter who saw MMA on TV and decided he wanted to do it. Rickson did not chose his job. His job was chosen for him by others. Other Gracies wanted the job more than Rickson, but Rickson had the job because he was better at doing it. Rickson never once asked for the job. He had to do it because everyone agreed he was the best.

People here are comparing Rickson to Renzo. Most people don’t realize that Renzo was another guy who didn’t chose his job, but rather, had his job chosen for him by someone else.

Craig Kukuk was the first American blackbelt in BJJ. He wanted to open BJJ schools on the East Coast that would be on the level of what Rorion Gracie was doing on the West Coast. He also knew that if he opened them under his own name, Rorion would attack the legitimacy of a non-Gracie Gracie Jiu-Jitsu school.

So Kukuk went to Brazil to find the Gracie with the most energy and grit. Not the most technical Gracie necessarily, but the one who would happily teach the most classes, and fight anyone anywhere. Kukuk recruited Renzo, and set up the school in the largest city on the East Coast, New York City. If Kukuk didn’t recruit him, Renzo might still be in Brazil.

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So people who don’t know the history are on here arguing that Renzo likes to fight more than Rickson. Yes of course. The business selected each of them for their roles.

Understand also, that the real money for the business is in the schools, not the MMA. The MMA is advertising for the business. Just like racing is advertising for car companies. Racing can improve the reputation of a car company; but the ideal is if you can become so successful that you don’t need the advertising anymore.

Consider Ford vs. Ferrari. If the Ford F-40 can beat Ferrari consistently, then Ford doesn’t need to waste the money on racing anymore, because they proved their point.

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Just like Rorion told you at the time he was doing the UFC for advertising, Rickson told you at the time, he was done fighting to prove himself, and would only fight for large amounts of money, or for honor. When Yoji Anjo showed up at Rickson’s school in 1994, Rickson had to fight him or risk the brand reputation of Gracie Jiu-Jitsu.

To have Royce’s run in the UFC followed by a past his prime 40 something Rickson fighting every young lion in MMA was more risk than reward for the Gracie brand. So that’s why it didn’t happen.

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Dan is an outlier, along with Randy. Rickson’s neck is completely destroyed.

Why? He was old and retired. Funaki was old and retiring. That fight makes sense. Fighting a guy in his prime doesn’t make sense. It wouldn’t yield the answer to the thread question.

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It’s a great comparison. You want him to fight the top opponents from 5 years after he retired.

Who exactly were the killers he avoided? Steve fucking Jennum beat Harold fucking Howard in the closest UFC to VTJ 94. So who exactly was he ducking fighting there? His brother, who he knew he was better than, had triangled the guy guy who won UFC 5 at UFC 4, the event right before VTJ 95. Frank the year after that, Couture the year after that.

Severn fought in VTJ the year after Rickson retired. Who was he supposedly ducking by fighting there?

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Which is why I followed that up by saying o
put them in a time machine and have the debate.

It’s the same thing really, since the fight didn’t happen, we’re just debating hypotheticals.

So is Rickson at 39/40 not better than Royce and Renzo were when they fought Sak in '00?

Does that make the difference?

Because what I’m hearing some people suggest is that Rickson was so much better, Royce and Renzo weren’t even in his league.
Sak vs Royce took forever, and the Renzo fight wasn’t quick either.
Seems competitive.
So if Rickson is so far ahead of Royce and Renzo – and they were both competitive with Sak – wouldn’t 39 year old Rickson be at least as competitive as they were?

BTW I get your point, I’m just responding for the sake of responding.

I don’t have much more to add.

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This is the kind of stuff rickson would respond very poorly. Rickson was far more orthodox and methodical than even royce

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I don’t know if it makes a difference. I would still favor Rickson. But if he had fought him at 40 when sak was 30 and lost, we’d never know if he lost because he was worse than Sakuraba or too old to perform optimally.

He was smart enough to not stick around to not find out. Similar to khabib, he left before the wheels fell off. I get it.

Rodney Mullen was asked why he doesn’t skate on video or at parks anymore, instead only in the middle of the night. He said “I don’t want to rot in public.” Rickson started fighting in 1980, I don’t fault him for any fight he didn’t take after 1995.

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There needs to be a less disrespectful emoji for posts like this than the clown or the eye roll. Something that says “I respect your opinions generally but this is a wild take”

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I like the eye roll.

It’s not a disrespectful clown.
It more like, dude.. what?

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Other than picking Rickson, I don’t disagree with any of this.

It was his decision to make.

Sak fought and beat 4 Gracies within about a year. So there was certainly reason for Rickson to step up and prove something – just like there was reason not to.

As far as age being the excuse if he lost, he did fight Funaki in '00, who was 31 at the time they fought.
About the same age Sakuraba was when he fought the other Gracies, right around the same time.

Age in numbers is generally not a good barometer for comparing fighters.

But Rickson did take a fight with a 31 year old Japanese legend in '00.
And IIRC, Rickson didn’t know Funaki was retiring until after the fight.

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Off topic, but how fucking wild is it that Funaki was retiring at 31 then with all those fights. What a fucking legend.

Funaki fought Rickson in his 50th fight though. Sakuraba had 10 fights going into 2000, and 15 coming out of it. He was skyrocking upward, Funaki was hurt and burnt out. It’s worlds different to me. I know 30 year old fighters who are completely used up, and some in their 40’s who might as well be 20. Miles, genetics, lifestyle, whatever combination thereof…they have the much bigger role than numbers.

Honestly I think we are 99% in agreement on these topics, but I’m enjoying discussing it anyway.

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Goatse?