How do you see Sakuraba vs Rickson going realistically?

[TimDuncan]

Well I think there is a lot of respect but I am inclined to believe Renzo.

I still think a real fight might be a lot closer however because Renzo is a better striker than anyone Rickson ever fought imo

[hjr2]

I think the only reason it’s so contentious is the 400-0 claim. If he was a little more humble about everything he’d probably be revered like some sort of demi-god.

[TimDuncan]

I think this sums it up. There were fighters much more accomplished in MMA that didn’t boast as much

[onepunchJD]

@crabScissors_CTT

Even if you could hypothetically hypnotize them both and have them not know each other, that fight always ends with either an RNC or ground and pound death and Rickson on top.

Possibly.

But that’s more of a matchup thing.
Eventually that’s where the fight likely ends up.

But for me to say Rickson is “better at MMA” than Renzo and Royce, I would have to believe Rickson does better vs the guys they fought than Renzo and Royce did.
Off the top of my head that list includes:
Ken
Severn
Kimo
Yoshida
Hughes
Sak
Taktarov
Newton
Frank
Penn
Hendo
Tamura
Miletich
Kondo

I feel like I’m forgetting some.

Advocates for Rickson would have me believe he could run the table vs that list, or at least do much better than Royce and Renzo.

I could be wrong, but I don’t have reason to believe that he would.
It’s possible.
But 13 minutes to beat a past-his-prime Funaki with no knees or elbows allowed, is not convincing evidence.

I think it’s more likely that both Royce and Renzo go 11-0 vs Rickson’s opponents, than Rickson does better vs their opponents.

If that makes sense.

And I say this with all due hespect to Funaki, who is a solid win on anyone’s resume, and Rickson’s most validating win IMO.

All due hespect to all these guys.
They’re all studs.

[Toonces]

@crabScissors_CTT

For people who are good at actual BJJ, striking makes grappling easier, not harder

[EdFetish]

Rickson would have had no answer for his wrestling. Sak controls the fight pretty easily.

[Incognito]

And Sak would have out-struck him in the stand-up.

[onepunchJD]

@crabScissors_CTT

Renzo started laughing and said something like “it’s Rickson, and it’s not even close. If you would see my training sessions with him, you would not dream of saying I am better at fighting than him.”

Sure.

And most people who trained with guys like Marco Ruas or Ken Shamrock say similar things about them.
And I’m not saying any of them are wrong.

Just that stringing together a bunch of NHB/MMA wins vs top level guys is a different matter.

I think had Rickson attempted it on the level that Royce and Renzo did, two things would have happened.

1. He would have validated his next-level mastery on the ground to a larger audience.
2. He would have been stopped at some point.

That’s just my feeling about it, and I don’t think it’s a knock on Rickson at all.

[fuck.alta]

well i dont think rickson was the best in his era anymore than roger gracie was in his own

[EskimoPussy]

Trying to promote and sell jiu jitsu to the masses. I’d say it was a pretty successful campaign. It was obvious marketing bullshit to anyone that had ever trained anything, but that wasn’t their demo. They wanted to be on the level of taekwondo schools as far as popularity and that meant getting geeks, women and kids. Do people not realize this shit 30-40 years after the fact?

[EskimoPussy]

Everyone loses if they fight long enough and they lose more than once. That’s certainly been proven at this point.

[EskimoPussy]

Don’t you think the level of the opposition was vastly different? How about none of Rickson’s opponents were proficient in jiu jitsu and all of Roger’s were at least defensively proficient.

[TimDuncan]

I took BJJ because of Royce. I am greatful to the Gracie’s for introducing the world to grappling

[EskimoPussy]

Anyone that does jiu jitsu in the United States is a product of them saying 400-0 whether we like it or not. Obviously Royce played the biggest role by actually fighting but the mystical bullshit like 400-0 garnered a lot of attention and is still being talked about in this thread 30 years later. I fucking wish I could promote my business that well

[Arod_Morgan]

@crabScissors_CTT

And the hating him talking shit about people from the later generations is very selective, I don’t see people still seething that Chuck thinks he’s better than Jon Jones.

I’m willing to allow the “old timers” their stories. Cops, soldiers, etc.

At some point, I think it’s something where they’re trying to deny getting old and slow.

I’m sure all of us have had moments where, at the age of 40/45, we tried to do something that we did at ~25 and almost died (figuratively speaking).

This idea that we should be angry about someone’s opinion gets to be a bit much sometimes.

[MasterOfMartialArts]

@EskimoPussy

I fucking wish I could promote my business that well

With that attitude, you never will

Have you had 400 clients? If they’re all happy, you’re 400-0.

[EskimoPussy]

No one will be talking about it in 30 years and that I’m sure of lol

[crabScissors_CTT]

@onepunchJD

I think had Rickson attempted it on the level that Royce and Renzo did, two things would have happened.

It’s not a fair ask though.

He is 7 and 8 years older than Royce and Renzo, respectively. MMA as we know it came into being in 93. I know Vale Tudo existed, but it was not a steady stream of events, and shooto etc. But it’s not the same. Rickson retired in 95 at 35, it’s really not fair to go back and say what he should have done relative to those others.

[hjr2]

I’d say Royce courtesy of Rorion did that far more than Rickson.

[EskimoPussy]

Yes and I said that a couple posts later