MMA History Podcast(TM) - Kimo Leopoldo

UltimateGround
103

explain what shoot is, fake fight? i always heard a shoot meant real

104

We need to work on this….

You are right a shoot is more appropriate for pro wrestling

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105

What would you call what took place between Oleg and Macias

Where one competitor was involved without the other persons knowledge

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106

Yep a shoot means it’s real.

Like Ken vs Nielsen was a shoot even though it was PWFG.

But with some shoots the lines are blurred a little, like when superior a fighter carried his opponent to let the match play out longer.
It’s still a real fight with a real finish, but you have a guy who had the ability to end it sooner.

But that’s not to say that applies to all shoots.

107

Taking a dive.

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108

I love this place

That is the answer

1 work
2 dive
3 agreement

Can we add to this?

109

IMO “agreement” would more fall into the work category.
Terminology from Japanese puroresu and/or pro wrestling in general is blending with other combat sport terminology when it comes to NHB/MMA.

In my experience, for MMA people tend to use the word “work” as a general umbrella that anything fishy, fake, or otherwise not a 100% real fight falls under.

In pro wrestling there are “stiff works” or “hard style” vs actual “shoots”.
In that world, since most of it is “worked”, an actual shoot is identifying an outlier.
For example Pancrase was intended to be an organization featuring real shoots – but as we know there were some growing pains in that aspect.

MMA has it’s roots in puro, pro wrestling, GJJ, and other combat sports.
So the exact terminology used depends on who you’re talking to.

For example “taking a dive” or “putting someone over” could describe the difference in whether both fighters were in on it or not.
That’s old-school boxing lingo vs pro wrestling lingo.

Even with fights we know were in some way not legit, we might not know the details of whatever agreement was made.
So we tend to throw the term “work” around, and then go from there.

If that makes sense.

So I think the accepted vernacular kind of changes depending on who you’re talking to, because MMA has its roots in multiple worlds.

@Bill_C can elaborate on this much better than I do, if he wants to.

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110

Let me push back a little

Shamrock - Severn - Dance in Detroit
I am referring to that as an “agreement”

In your opinion is their a better term to use?

Let’s site examples

Macias vs Taktarov - Dive
Severn vs Brad Kohler - work
Dance in Detroit???

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111

A dud of a fight lol.

I don’t believe there was any type of agreement between them prior to that.
Of course there could have been.
I have no way of knowing for sure.

But IMO that boring fight was a result of last minute rule changes and 2 guys being overly cautious.

If – for the sake of argument – they did have some arrangement prior..
I would call that a work.
But who’s going to “work” a boring uneventful decision?
Who benefits from that?

Doesn’t make much sense.

If the judges are in on it, I’d probably call that a fixed fight.

And for “The Dance”, they pretty much would have had to be, because there wasn’t much there to judge. Would be an unpredictable outcome.

112

My 2 cents nobody asked for lol, I like thinking about it as putting them in 1 of 3 categories:

-A dive is when one competitor throws the fight

-A work is when both competitors throw the fight

-A fix is when outsiders like ref, judges or promoters affect the outcome of the fight in an illegal way

It gets confusing because a work can also be used to describe any of the terms of a non legit competition but I think most terms would fall into one of those 3. I think an agreement would be a type of work because both competitors would be in on it.

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113

Yep.

Agreed.

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114

I agree on how you classified a shoot. Technically all real fight competition should be a shoot so it’s a given and doesn’t need to be stated so it’s more of a pro wrestling term for when a work turns real.

That gives me an excuse to post arguably the greatest tweet of all time by Hulk Hogan RIP

images
images512×390 26.3 KB

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115

Brilliant

I have seen low end pro boxing events where a manager match makes for a new promoter

They stack the card with their own guys in order to take a percentage of every fight that they book

Then tell the guys do NOT KO each other

  • this happens more often than people will admit too

I always looked at situations like this as an “agreement”

But the way that the two of you have broken it down….

  • I agree with you

Mark Schultz confirmed that Severn and Shamrock had an agreement to that turn if a fight largely in part to him making equal pay as to the two of them

  • keep in mind, the entire rest of the card punched the shit out of each other
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116

MMA IQ is awesome up in this Bitch ^^^^^^^

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117

I think your Boxing example is obviously not a dive because both competitors are in on it so it’s a work that is also a fix because it went beyond both competitors being in on it and it included the promoter as an outsider arranging the outcome.

The difference between that Boxing work example and the work or agreement between Shamrock and Severn is that the promoter was not in on it so it was just an agreement between the fighters. So it was a work and not a total fix lol

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118

What?

Can you rephrase that?

Also, I hadn’t heard the Mark Schultz thing.
Is it on a podcast?

People don’t like excuses, and Ken tends to be a divisive figure.

However, IMO Ken actually had a legit reason not to break the rules.
He ran a boys foster home with Bob. There’s legal stuff involved with that kind of thing, and being arrested and/or charged with a crime could be a problem for that.
People can have their opinions on how good of a reason that is – but it is an actual reason.

I don’t think it was a good excuse for the lackluster performance though.
IMO Ken was better enough than Dan to beat him using Pancrase rules.

119

closed fist striking was illegal in that fight

i understand why ken obeyed

but severn did not obey

i doubt they agreed to that part

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120

some roofer started that story

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121

Yeah I’m not getting it.

They agreed to put on a boring fight?
How did they decide who would win?

Doesn’t add up.

122

That makes sense .. I’m a huge fan of Hume as well - I wish the ufc would have signed him back in the day .. great fighter and coach

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