“Tell me how I’m feelin’ right now!”
1 Like
Tito “owned” an old wore down and injured Ken at a weight class Ken never won a fight in.
Nobody is doing that to peak mid 90s heavyweight Ken, and certainly not Tito.
I doubt Tito could even take him down.
He’d get physically dominated and the entire dynamic of the fight would just look way different.
That looks more like Lister than Tito
For whatever reason I don’t really consider Frank a Lions Den guy. Probably because of his cross training and leaving them fairly early on.
The thing I liked about Tito was how quickly he was picking up on the sport.
Lost to Frank because he gassed went on to be a cardio machine.
Lost to Guy because of his lack of submission understanding and ended up a very good submission grappler.
If Wand would have finished him, he may have became a decent striker.
Cross training?
Ken is the one who initially brought Mo Smith to the Lions Den to “cross train”.
And Frank had like 20-something fights with the Lions Den before forming The Alliance after Ken left.
Frank might have gotten a little better after he left the Lions Den, but it was all built on the foundation that Ken laid and the experience Frank got fighting for the LD for 3 years.
That said, if you want to say Frank was not technically fighting for the Lions Den when he fought Tito, then that brings Tito’s LD fights down to 3 fights vs 2 fighters in that era, going 2-1.
Sure, but that’s kind of stuff everyone was doing back then.
Tito deserves full credit for making cardio a priority after the Frank fight.
No doubt.
Beyond that his next big advantage was being an excellent weight cutter and having a significant natural size advantage during his title run.
Not sure I agree with this..
I liked Tito’s striking better when he was younger and still raw, because he was more willing to let them fly.
Later in his career when he “improved” his striking, he became more stiff and didn’t really come with heavy leather.
I just don’t think that – being somewhat of a front-runner – Tito had the mentality to be a true killer striker.
I’m aware he lost to Mezger but he resoundingly won the rematch. I thought Guy had a good chance in the planned rematch, but we will never know. Frank wasn’t a Lion’s Den fighter when he beat Tito.
I thought he only fought Ken 3×
Regardless & Random…
When I was cool with Tito we were chilling drinking and I asked him a 2 part question but wanted to see if I was right first.
-
What was the first fight where you cleared a milli?
-
What was your best purse ever.
I guessed the 2nd question correctly but was surprised at the first.
-
Was second Ken fight
-
Was second Chuck fight.
2 Likes
Regardless, “all of Ken’s best guys” = Mezger and Bohlander if you don’t count Frank.
Why wasn’t Frank a Lion’s Den guy?
Correct.
I assumed it was a typo.
“They made a lot of money together”
Lol.
Ken had no business trying to fight Tito again at LHW.
Should have forced the rematch at HW or not at all. He was still probably too far gone anyways – but at least he could have came in at a healthier weight.
Really, Ken should have retired after the second Kimo fight.
Then he would have gone out with a win over a guy coming off a win over Tank – so it kind of put a neat little bow on that wing of his era. And the Tito fight would have been seen as a badge of honor, considering the heart he demonstrated and fighting the younger guy who was at his peak.
Ken’s legacy would be so much better without everything that happened after that.
1 Like
Walk up to Frank and refer to him as one of “Ken’s guys”. He’ll love that.
2 Likes
Yes, for 3 years and twenty-something fights.
He and Ken had a falling out after Ken went to pro wrestling, so Frank formed The Alliance with Mo Smith and TK.
Ken still made Frank though.
With The Alliance he was just putting a better edge on an already sharp knife.
1 Like
Probably depends on when you ask him.
His ego and emotional response either way wouldn’t take away from the reality that he absolutely was “one of Ken’s guys”.
Watching Frank cry when Ken brought up the possibility of them doing a fight, was both eye-opening, and went a long way to confirm the nature of their relationship.
1 Like
The Lions Den was cross trained but Frank was much more analytical and had a better understanding of what it was to train like a professional athlete.
The Lions Den guys were ahead of their time but quickly became behind the times. They could beat one dimensional opponents but their grappling was outdated and not nearly enough designed around position over submission. Their strength and conditioning was basically body builder programs and they couldn’t get in new blood because they relied so heavily on professional wrestling style try outs where they just blew guys up and then beat the shit out of them.
Having personal knowledge of them and their training, I will admit bias. Many of those guys are scum bags
1 Like
I feel like they would have evolved better had Ken not gone to WWF – and also had Ken not been self-destructive lunatic.
They were all well conditioned for the time.
Ken himself never had conditioning problems until later when he was all fucked up.
It wasn’t just weight lifting, they were doing a lot of calisthenic stuff along with frequent rolling.
Yeah that was not sustainable.
But I think there was something to it in the beginning. Ken wanted guys who wouldn’t quit. But you have to evolve.
Perhaps you could be more specific about the years you’re talking about.
I never went to the LD, but word gets around in gyms, and I have talked to some of them on these forums.
Ken was never a cardio machine. Also Tito would still be bigger than prime Ken if he didn’t cut weight
I don’t know what this means.
Was he a “cardio machine” on the level of Mo Smith or Frank?
No.
Did he ever have cardio issues at his peak?
Also no.
Ken was very well conditioned for the time, and had several long fights to demonstrate that.
But Ken would be stronger.
Probably. But he would gas fast. If Ken knocks him down and grabs his leg it could be over fast, but I see Ken fading if it is a long fight. No way Ken goes 5 rounds
No way Tito could finish peak Ken in 5 rounds.
And Tito would gas both physically and mentally having to fight the stronger opponent.
Similar to the Couture fight.
Tito is physically outmatched vs peak 90s Ken.
My wrestling and boxing coaches were both Olympians. I was fortunate to get to grow up learning the importance of technique, fundamentals and drilling with high level coaching.
The only MMA/ grappling near me in highschool was a Lions Den so I decided to check it out. I won’t name the coach but he was one of the guys you think of when you hear Lions Den fighters.
I had to “try out” which was as I explained earlier. They just try to blow you up and then you have to grapple all of their guys until finally when you’re exhausted the coach hops in to show you how bad ass he is by stretching you.
The vibe I got at that time was it was a hang out for divorced guys to pop pills, take roids and beat on guys who were paying to be trained. When I started competing I was begging promoters to fight guys from that gym. No luck though