Also, RDR has a good chance of being top 3. I think im the future this loss won’t look that bad on Nickal.
It’s like a dinner bell to the defensive leglock guys any time I make this statement lol. I’m still training at the highest levels, I have a good understanding of lower limb submissions and leg entanglements.
I am referring to guys who actively engage in leg attacks or leg entanglements when they have another out prior to ending up in that spot like Figeroua was doing. I’m also referring to guys who actively try to go for the submission when they have an opening (from the attack) to reverse position or get back to their feet.
Both scenarios happen all the time, where people willingly accept the position and stay there to either end up in a worse position or get beat on.
I specified when they are useful. Of course there is a time and place going for the leg lock attack can help open up the scrambles and reversals you need to reverse position. I never said it was either or. I’m referring to guys actively seeking the position out when better alternatives exist. If you end up there or in a bad spot and want to use it to advance your position by attacking the leg, that is fine.
I’m not writing them off entirely, but generally how you often see them used is not fruitful. The window of viability is very narrow and if it fails you are in a bad position, potentially losing a better position, taking damage, losing the fight when other options are often available. If they were that effective you would see the best leg lockers in the world constantly making waves in the UFC, we don’t.
Is there a time and place with a narrow window to sometimes open up a reversal or scramble? Yes, and that is how it should be used. Obviously that encompasses going for an attack and seeing what the opponent gives you. Is it normally a bad idea to play the game willingly when other options are available? Yes, I stand by that 100%.
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No, but I’m very experienced in mma and Jiu jitsu. Black belt since 2008 and started training in 1997 and fighting in 1999.
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I know. I read and comprehended your post. I just think you have a bad sense when a better or alternative attack/transition exists.
Not true. First of all it’s the newest element of grappling, and most of the MMA guys haven’t adapted yet. The reason you see the don’t see the best leg lockers in the world constantly making waves is that there is too much other shit to get good at, so the guys on the cutting edge of leg attacks now don’t have the other requisite skills. Hell it’s only within the past 2 ADCCs that we see top guys all know good leg lock offense, defense, and wrestle ups off of them.
Leg attacks aren’t a separate game to play willingly. There are times where they are the optimal thing to do and times when they are not.
I’m not a leg lock guy (although people think I am just because I know them well), I preach to my students all the time that arm triangle and RNC are the best subs and everything you do should lead down a progression to get to mount with an underhook. Leg locks themselves should ideally exist as a way to punish people who don’t understand how to defend them. But playing leg entanglements like SLX or 50/50 are not “playing the leg lock game.” They are just positions in grappling.
My jimmies aren’t rustled I just like to chime in on the subject when I hear guys talk about them in an incorrect way.
Going to SLX from half butterfly was absolutely the optimal thing for Fig to do when he did. He lost because he didn’t understand the positions well enough and made a bunch of errors after entering the legs in not knowing when to bail to top position, not because he “chose to play that game.”
We need more people to understand the right way to use leg entanglements, not people to say “I choose not to play that game” if we want people in posterity to get as good at fighting as possible.
Thanks For Making The OFFICIAL Thread DRito
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Straight delusion when it comes to MMA especially from BJJ centric competitors. We have been hearing for years and years leg locks would revolutionize MMA.
“Everyone has a plan to heelhook until they get punched in the face”
Leg entaglements won’t have a revolution in MMA. Not because they’re not effective at times but they often require you to abandon the best practice positions of MMA to pull off. Time is better utilized in training these best practices of being successful at a high level in MMA.
The entries often just leave you way too exposed so you’re going to be getting pummeled as you’re trying to get the entry. You have to be fast and technical with the application. There is absolutely a time and place for it of course or just by chance of being in the position but it is limited.
Learning to defend the entanglements and get into a favorable position using strikes is not near as hard as trying to use them successfully offensively. Especially since many of the entries will not work when strikes are introduced
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No offense brother but I can’t imagine having this take when talking about a fight that was won with leg attacks at transitions…
People don’t know until they know.
Leg locks weren’t even figured out in the context of just BJJ until like 2018, and even at that they are still undergoing advances as we speak. No one is talking about “revolutionizing MMA” like we’re going to see tons of heel hook wins at the highest level, but it is an aspect of the game that is not understood by a large majority of current athletes and you will see that slowly shift until judicious use of leg entanglements, especially from the bottom, will be a permanent aspect that everyone will have to understand.
Cory broke TJ with the same inside spin from 50/50 and arguably won the fight because TJ was on one wheel for rounds 2-5.
No offense taken, I enjoy the discourse. Saying a fight was won by something doesn’t mean anything lol. How many fights in the UFC are won by someones knee blowing out in a leg entanglement transition?
The revolution of technical leglock innovation is a decade old. If it was going to have a major impact on today’s MMA game it would have happened by now. It hasn’t, and there are very good reasons for it.
It takes quite a long time to become proficient at attacking legs at the higher level. It’s much easier in MMA to learn how to defend or get out of those positions and then use best practice tried and true striking and positioning.
In Gary Tonon’s fight vs. Le there was a leg-lock attack. Gary latched on trying to work the lower body and Le knocked him out cold. Gary was trying to hold onto the leg because he was anticipating Le trying to pull out as if it was a BJJ competition. Gary is great with leg locks and he was KO’d promptly by a guy far less technical than him.
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To be honest I think he blew it out in the heel hook just before he heisted but I get your point there.
Yeah but it’s only been about 5 years since the good guys learned how to use them to sweep and get on top. The first wave of leg lock sycophants that came along after Eddie Cummings just didn’t have enough options off of it when guys learned defense.
Actually I have a slightly different take on this. I think Garry was just overconfident in his breaking mechanics. He absolutely could have used that taint sweep off-balance to just get on top but instead he chose to stay on the heel and dig after Than heel slipped correctly. Than’s defense was also so sharp because he (like Sandhagen) trains with Ryan Hall and has real understanding of the position.
Garry was stubborn retard and deserved to get KO’d.
I can’t imagine how happy Ryan Hall was after that considering the beef between him and the Danaher guys lol.
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We can agree to disagree on the finer points of this, I suspect we would agree on a lot more than disagree on MMA and grappling in general.
No matter how much the leg lock game changes at its core you can often be vulnerable when entering and controlling those positions when strikes are involved especially if someone defends well. At the highest levels and with the ability and speed these guys have in MMA, one mistake and at best you lose the round and at worst you are getting pummeled and KO’d.
There certainly is a time and a place for it. But I have been hearing “any day now” about how leg attacks will revolutionize MMA for the past 10 years. I don’t think it is going to happen, for the reasons I have illustrated. If I am wrong I will happily eat crow.
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Sure buddy.. the way you comment in threads. I 100% believe it
Ask around, people here know me
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Oh yeah I think we probably would.
It’s a sore point for me just because I see a lot of people do really dumb and bad shit with leg locks in MMA and I feel like it’s poisoned people’s opinions on how useful they can be implemented when someone is really good at them and also really good at everything else.
To me it’s a lot like the guillotine, never worth the risk of going from top to bottom for and you have to be well versed in the offense and escapes both to be a good fighter.
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I hate the ESPN deal. According to my cable’s guide, this was going to be on ESPN2. It even had it set up to automatically record since I have UFC events set up that way. Get home late last night, turn on the TIVO, and I have 6 hours of college baseball recorded.
Turns out it was on ESPN instead of ESPN2.
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This is why you motherfuckers can’t be trusted. Y’all made it sound like Bo took a beating bell to bell and ran to the other side of the cage every time he got hit. First round was very competitive but I gave to RDR because of the takedown and control at the end.
The second round RDR put crazy pressure on Bo and he didn’t shy away from it. Fight got crazy there for a minute until they ended up against the cage and then the finish happened. What was up with the immediate stoppage?
Overall I think RDR was big enough and good enough to where Bo couldn’t get him down and if he did, he wouldn’t be able to do much. Bo took punches just fine and even engaged in exchanges willingly, but he took like 47 knees to the body. That last knee would have crumbled most middleweights.
RDR was a HUGE step up from Paul Craig. Not even sure why this fight was made. Bo’s striking just isn’t there yet. I’ll admit I thought his striking would improve faster but y’all’s expectations of him are pretty wild. He will be a very good fighter but he needs to fight more and fight guys closer to his skill level.
That was a liver shot and it shut him down.
He seems like an arrogant douche, so people are going to pile on him. I’ve only seen the finish, and he looked like he was fighting until the end
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Yeah he was fighting. He didn’t really quit, the liver shot just shut him down. He took a lot of body shots just fine and got punched a lot. I think it’s pretty obvious he has some serious striking work to do. But overall I think he proved he’s willing to go in there and exchange with guys. I don’t really pay attention to what he says outside the cage so I don’t care about that. Will he be a champion one day? Maybe but he has a lot of work to do. RDR is way underranked at 185 and is much bigger, Bo seems like a top 15 guy in the division.
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Totally disagree. He doesn’t look scary, but his fights are always very exciting. He’s very exciting, fast, crisp technically, well rounded and always goes for the finish. What’s boring about him?
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This
Only here on the OG would somebody find Sandhagen boring. He’s probably one of the most technically skilled fighters we’ve seen in a cage, always action, and always exciting.
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